Wolf Hall - Development Testing Thread

Male protagonist, in the Hall for bold and athletic boys.
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Oki
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Re: Wolf Hall - Development Testing Thread

#331 Post by Oki » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:21 pm

Savanime wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:10 pm
Just got my backer survey, so I figured I post one last push for my two favorite side-romance options!

100% voting for Jacob and Balthasar, both for the pure hilarity that a side route with them will bring. Jacob is *the* rich kid in school, and he acts like it too. He's egotistical, but he does seems to have a soft side for Minnie. A side route with him means a second reason to join the student council. It also means that you can tell Kyo that, no, neither you nor Jacob is after Minnie, cause you're dating each other! And at the end of the year, he might figure out who you really are and it'll wipe that dumb smirk off his face. Really, I just want to challenge him and have a non-Minnie reason for going after the presidency. Voting for Balthasar is a no brainer for me. I mean, he likes plants..... He really likes plants.
I voted for Jacob and Angela for the same reason..I just really want both of them to freak the f out and go holy shit
I've been here so long even Hanako is sick of me

CrimsonRose
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Re: Wolf Hall - Development Testing Thread

#332 Post by CrimsonRose » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:53 pm

I agree with Emma E that would be hilarious and an opportunity maybe to mess with grabby.

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Emma E.
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Re: Wolf Hall - Development Testing Thread

#333 Post by Emma E. » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:06 am

CrimsonRose wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:53 pm
I agree with Emma E that would be hilarious and an opportunity maybe to mess with grabby.
Hehehehe thank you
While I have your attention, what would you think of a scheming!MCxDamien fic? My idea for it is just that, like, everything about romancing Damien is fake. But if you play up all innocent, it's fake for both of you. The Wolf Hall MC is already, essentially, pretending to be just a normal ol' transfer student from a normal little European country, so I just kind of like playing the idea of their relationship being a part of that. Everything was a fantasy from the start.

Brei
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Re: Wolf Hall - Development Testing Thread

#334 Post by Brei » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:00 am

I personally think the world needs more Damien fics PERIOD. I would read it for sure. I honestly have been thinking of trying my hand at writing some fanfiction too. Though mine would probably be about a flirtyMC caught between William and Damien.

Or I would write fic about a currently non existent snake hall character, a girl who comes from a powerful Otherworld bloodline and has people watching her constantly because of it even though all she wants is to be as normal as humanly possible....despite not being human.

Also does anyone else find Minnie a bit...mean? Or at least really sneaky and kind of dishonest? Like she tries to come off as nice and helpful but if you really look at her she is very selfish. To me anyway...

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Emma E.
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Re: Wolf Hall - Development Testing Thread

#335 Post by Emma E. » Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:26 am

Brei wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:00 am
I personally think the world needs more Damien fics PERIOD. I would read it for sure. I honestly have been thinking of trying my hand at writing some fanfiction too. Though mine would probably be about a flirtyMC caught between William and Damien.
Thank you, thank youuuu. I just needed a push from someone to make sure I wouldn't be yelling into an empty void if I were to write a fic.
Brei wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:00 am
Or I would write fic about a currently non existent snake hall character, a girl who comes from a powerful Otherworld bloodline and has people watching her constantly because of it even though all she wants is to be as normal as humanly possible....despite not being human.
Do people know she is from this bloodline, or are they just keeping a close eye on her because she is visually obviously from the Otherworld? Side note: is it just me, or is Snake Hall the dark horse favorite hall? (No roundabout puns intended)
Brei wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:00 am
Also does anyone else find Minnie a bit...mean? Or at least really sneaky and kind of dishonest? Like she tries to come off as nice and helpful but if you really look at her she is very selfish. To me anyway...
Dunno about that man. Maybe you're on to something. At worst, I think Minnie's niceness comes off as abrasive and insecure. Like she feels she needs to force people to like her with all her might, or else they just won't, and something in her can't stand the thought of that. Like I can believe she keeps bothering Barbara because she wants Barbara to be less "shy" and participate, but I at the same time believe that Minnie just can't accept that she rubs someone the wrong way. And you know what? I get that.

...It kinda points to self-hatred if that's true. People who believe they are intrinsically unlovable are people who loath themselves.

Brei
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Re: Wolf Hall - Development Testing Thread

#336 Post by Brei » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:38 am

You are welcome! Write away and then let me read?


I was thinking of making it rather obvious yes. Like a dragon hybrid or maybe some form of female demon...one who is decidedly unimpressed with Damien's antics. I'm still fleshing things out in my head but so far she prefers black and blue magics, thinks Potsdam is too cheerful, thinks Grabiner is one to something when he says they all might blow themselves up (I mean have you SEEN that crazy Wolf Hall guy she has to sit next to?), and has a morning coffee requirement that makes Big Steve look like a bunny. I'm working on it.

Its definitely abrasive. I just cannot tell if it stems from a desire to be the best at everything no matter what and no matter what happens to others because she is selfish, or because she is insecure and feels like she has something to prove. Either way she is at the very least a bit manipulative in a way that irks me.

But that said, I applaud Minnie's writer! Because when a writer can make a character come to life in a way that gets under your skin be it good, bad or just plain old annoying...they are conveying emotion with their words and its affecting you. That is the best type of writing.

fairfaxleasee
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Re: Wolf Hall - Development Testing Thread

#337 Post by fairfaxleasee » Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:35 pm

Brei wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:00 am
Also does anyone else find Minnie a bit...mean? Or at least really sneaky and kind of dishonest? Like she tries to come off as nice and helpful but if you really look at her she is very selfish. To me anyway...
Yes! Thank you. I *detest* Minnie and her fake friend manipulative bs-I honestly find her indescribably worse than Damien in this, at least he admits he's evil, she is fundimenally incapable of entertaining the thought she might be. I knew girls like that in high school and they were/are the worst. To me Minnie doesn't want to help people, she wants to control people to fit into her image of what they "should" be, particularly the wildseeds. I think my single favorite moment in the game is the scene with Barbara and Minnie in the cafeteria where Barbara is just all levels of done with Minnie.

Runespoor
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Re: Wolf Hall - Development Testing Thread

#338 Post by Runespoor » Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:34 pm

fairfaxleasee wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:35 pm
Brei wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:00 am
Also does anyone else find Minnie a bit...mean? Or at least really sneaky and kind of dishonest? Like she tries to come off as nice and helpful but if you really look at her she is very selfish. To me anyway...
I honestly find her indescribably worse than Damien in this, at least he admits he's evil, she is fundimenally incapable of entertaining the thought she might be. I knew girls like that in high school and they were/are the worst.
But did these girls abuse their boyfriends, cut them off from their friends, and attempt to murder them?

Yeah, I'm calling bullshit.

eta: and tbh the Minnie-bashing is getting old. We get it. Ambitious girls who micromanage people and try to be friendly to everyone are evil. Because nothing is worse than a girl with ambitions.
Emma E. wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:26 am
Dunno about that man. Maybe you're on to something. At worst, I think Minnie's niceness comes off as abrasive and insecure. Like she feels she needs to force people to like her with all her might, or else they just won't, and something in her can't stand the thought of that. Like I can believe she keeps bothering Barbara because she wants Barbara to be less "shy" and participate, but I at the same time believe that Minnie just can't accept that she rubs someone the wrong way. And you know what? I get that.
My read on the Barbara situation was that Minnie kind of panicked because Barbara keeps putting herself in more-or-less serious danger (including throwing herself off a roof). And it goes wrong because Minnie sells herself as "nice, friendly, harmless girl-next-door" as hard as Barbara sells herself as "dangerous badass". Minnie would need to drop the persona or try to meet her halfway to reach Barbara. So long as Minnie stays convinced Barbara is "someone to be protected" and not someone with her own agency and priorities, she's doomed to fail.

Or I'm wrong and Minnie's just putting on airs and making scenes with Barbara where everyone can see to make herself look better at the expense of the weird/dangerous Snake girl. In the absence of nefarious goals on Minnie's part, and given that she does walk the walk to help others, I'm willing to err on the side of simplicity here.

touchandgo
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Re: Wolf Hall - Development Testing Thread

#339 Post by touchandgo » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:15 pm

Runespoor wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:34 pm

But did these girls abuse their boyfriends, cut them off from their friends, and attempt to murder them?

Yeah, I'm calling bullshit.

eta: and tbh the Minnie-bashing is getting old. We get it. Ambitious girls who micromanage people and try to be friendly to everyone are evil. Because nothing is worse than a girl with ambitions.

My read on the Barbara situation was that Minnie kind of panicked because Barbara keeps putting herself in more-or-less serious danger (including throwing herself off a roof). And it goes wrong because Minnie sells herself as "nice, friendly, harmless girl-next-door" as hard as Barbara sells herself as "dangerous badass". Minnie would need to drop the persona or try to meet her halfway to reach Barbara. So long as Minnie stays convinced Barbara is "someone to be protected" and not someone with her own agency and priorities, she's doomed to fail.

Or I'm wrong and Minnie's just putting on airs and making scenes with Barbara where everyone can see to make herself look better at the expense of the weird/dangerous Snake girl. In the absence of nefarious goals on Minnie's part, and given that she does walk the walk to help others, I'm willing to err on the side of simplicity here.
Ignoring the severity of each of their actions/plans, I think the main reason people find Minnie worse is because Damien knows he's a bad guy. He knows he's cruel, that he's manipulating and hurting people. From what we've seen of Minnie so far, she comes across as more 'the ends justify the means' and thinks that because her intentions are good her actions can't be bad (or that they're justifiable). You can argue either way whether or not it's worse for someone to knowingly do evil or to believe that they're good because their evil acts were for a 'good' end goal.

It's weird though, I found her very interesting and sympathetic in Horse Hall but she completely rubs me up the wrong way in this game. She reminds me a lot of a girl I used to know who came across as very nice and smart, but was actually really manipulative and at times downright cruel (which she always used to justify under being 'concerned' or it was to uphold her image/popularity). I commend Hanako for writing such a brilliant character that feels real and incites strong emotion in not only in me, but quite a few others here.

Rereading and I just wanted to add, there is nothing wrong with a girl who's ambitious. I think interpret her differently from how some of us see here (you see her as trying to be nice to everyone, while others find that same behaviour feels manipulative). There is nothing wrong with either interpretations. However, this place here is to talk about the game and how we feel about the characters/events. It's not 'Minnie-bashing' to express our feelings and debate her motivations (as long as it's friendly!!). I don't think anyone here has said that she's evil for being ambitious. Maybe Minnie needs her own thread so that we stop clogging up this one while there's no new content?


I really, really enjoyed getting to call her out for her speech if you refused the co-presidency and I felt it was sorely needed. I just wish I could call her out for ascribing meaning to a phrase that a non-native speaker would have no idea the connotations for. It's sort of a flipped coin for the Wildseed issue that she's so passionate about, isn't it? They aren't informed the rules and yet get treated/punished by those same rules. The MC is speaking in another language in an unfamiliar culture and Minnie is treating/punishing by the rules and hidden meanings/connotations that the MC would have no idea. She also starts her presidency campaign extremely early, well before the Wildseeds or exchange students would have any idea why she's doing this or for them to design their own campaign. It's not very far, is it?


I do hope we're going to be able to confront Minnie about completely taking over the Presidency tasks and how her behaviour feels manipulative in the co-presidency path. I don't just mean in a combative way (although I do hope that option is there), but in an honest heart to heart where both characters can be vulnerable. I know Hanako wouldn't do this, but I feel like a lot of media/stories with characters like Minnie their behaviour gets swept under the rug because their intentions were good. Just because you had good intentions doesn't mean what you did was okay and I hope that gets properly explored in the game.

Runespoor
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Re: Wolf Hall - Development Testing Thread

#340 Post by Runespoor » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:48 pm

touchandgo wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:15 pm
It's not 'Minnie-bashing' to express our feelings and debate her motivations (as long as it's friendly!!).
I literally quoted a comment saying that Minnie was worse that a gaslighter who tries to kill his girlfriend. I'm trying to think of a way the character-bashing could be more obvious.

And there certainly seems to be a double-standard at work. Jacob and MC pretty much buy their roles, William manipulates the hell out of MC (and Ellen, at that), Damien is being Damien, but in the thread their behaviours gets passes, for various reasons. Meanwhile, Minnie (and eta:Angela) get painted in the worst possible light. Yeah, it does read like internalized misogyny to me.

And I want to be clear: I don't think Minnie's perfect. I don't think Angela's a good person. But in the absence of proof that Minnie doesn't mean well or that Angela was trying to cast a spell on William to win him back, I'm going to refrain from using the word "evil". In many ways, you can certainly call Minnie selfish, controlling, and manipulative: she is a Butterfly, and she is ambitious, and she does know how to use her image - that doesn't make her any less devoted to the well-being of others, as her actions in both this game and HH so far show. And I think hyperboles about her evilness are getting thrown around a little too easily.

You have a good point about the language barrier, re: Minnie and PC.

[eta: whooooooops! I have no idea how on earth I managed to type Barbara instead of Angela every time, but that's sure a thing I did! sorry for the confusion, and thank you for the heads up!)

[edit again, because I'm loath to add Yet Another Minnie Post under hanako's intervention: I finally went and did the calling-Minnie-out on the Declined Deal path. It made me squee and ship Minnie/PC so much. I loved getting the opportunity to tell her that she lied! I also loved that she refuses to acknowledge what she did wrong! It was a great touch, that the librarian needs to cut the scene short, because neither PC nor Minnie backs down. I liked that a lot, because it paints MC and Minnie as equals. It's also great to see Minnie without her usual super-friendly mask, Minnie honestly talking about politics head-on - because MC forces the issue and forces the confrontation. Great dynamic. I'm a sucker for semi-antagonistic friendships/romances, and romances with a political backdrop, so I was feeling extremely catered to.

"...I'm sorry if your feelings were hurt." OH MY GOD Minnie took the concept of non-apology and made it even less apologetic, that passive voice! That's awful. And idk, it gives me the impression that the more she's making it not-her-fault, the more she's justifiying this to herself as the end-justifying-the-means. I do think she's in it in part for a greater cause than merely her own ambition. She wants to change things, not just uphold the status quo. And in the meantime she tries to minimize as much as she can in her own eyes the hurt she might be causing around her. It doesn't matter as much as what she's trying to achieve, just like her own well-being doesn't matter.]
Last edited by Runespoor on Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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hanako
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Re: Wolf Hall - Development Testing Thread

#341 Post by hanako » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:16 pm

Whoops, I think you slipped and said Barbara when you meant Angela there, leading to a rather confusing post :)

For the most part I have to stay out of all this because I obviously know far too much that I can't give away. It is more useful for me, though, if people talk about why they get these feelings about characters, specific things that they did or didn't do that gave certain impressions, that's useful data to me. Also because I worry that some people are being misled solely by other people's posts and statements of opinion as fact rather than by what's in the game (Sadly I'm not likely to get much input on this thread of what someone who DOESN'T know about Damien thinks of WH Damien, because it's impossible to keep that hidden) which makes it trickier to know what may need fine-tuning.

OTOH I really would prefer it if people not call characters 'worse than Damien' (and yes, someone did say that about William as well) - it's kind of upsetting seeing behavior that real people might actually engage in, for whatever reasons, framed as worse than soulrape/murder, and likely to cause accidental pain/upset to thread readers who may now feel that everyone around them thinks they are irredeemably evil and unlovable because they once tried to talk a friend out of going to a nightclub or something. 'Less fun to read than Damien' would make more sense as a personal preference thing, or perhaps describing how a specific thing someone did bothered you more than a specific thing he did, without making the same overall value judgment? Dunno.

If you're not going to talk about in-beta specifics, please let the issue rest for now. Debating the overall characters will make more sense when you've seen the whole story. (Or at least the whole 'Wolf Hall' chapter, since there are of course many characters who still will have big secrets yet to come...)

Trying to get some new content out so we'll have other things to talk about soon! :)

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Re: Wolf Hall - Development Testing Thread

#342 Post by sf0311 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:35 pm

I am so excited about this! I've played for quite some hours now and haven't run into any technical problems whatsoever. I've got a small trigger/sensitivity-related issue I wanted to bring up, though.

In the conversation with Ellen on 14 Oct, the one about Columbus, I was a little put off by the syphilis moment. I like the idea behind it -- Ellen having an unguarded moment and saying something pretty harsh like that, then sort of realising it and feeling weird about it, that was sweet. But, at the same time... the way the dialogue is worded, that sweet moment becomes somehow entagled with something pretty close to a rape joke. I don't know, it made me uncomfortable and I think it might be unnecessarily triggering to survivors. "It's not hard to imagine how slave-takers picked up a sexual disease" was the sentence that crossed the line for me. Maybe that line could be tweaked a little, or just left out? I think it's still plausible enough that Ellen just gets embarassed by having sort of accidentally brought up STDs. This is not a huge thing and I wouldn't pay it much attention in some other games, but yours have really impressed me as being generally very conscious and sensitive about such things, so I thought I'd mention it. :)

Edit: Came across a bug after all (I think). I used the teleportation circle in the exam on 20 Nov, and the message that returned was "The unnamed unit has arrived here." I think that's probably not what it should say?

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hanako
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Re: Wolf Hall - Development Testing Thread

#343 Post by hanako » Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:34 pm

(after deleting some posts)

Seriously guys, please stop? It's causing distress for multiple forum members.

I feel bad about asking people to hush but - it's becoming emotionally uncomfortable for ME here. And I'm nominally the one in control. :)

Everyone is entitled to their own feelings and to feeling upset about specific developments! Please try to remember that other people have things they are upset about too.

Please don't ask me who or why. I need this to move on.

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Re: Wolf Hall - Development Testing Thread

#344 Post by cheshjabber » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:27 pm

hanako wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:34 pm
(after deleting some posts)

Seriously guys, please stop? It's causing distress for multiple forum members.

I feel bad about asking people to hush but - it's becoming emotionally uncomfortable for ME here. And I'm nominally the one in control. :)

Everyone is entitled to their own feelings and to feeling upset about specific developments! Please try to remember that other people have things they are upset about too.

Please don't ask me who or why. I need this to move on.
Please don't feel bad! As you're the one with the most information, I'm really grateful and relieved that you speak up for your community. If more mods were like you, the internet would be a much safer place to be. Thank you so much for all your hard work, Hanako!! You've definitely inspired me to try and do better at considering viewpoints much different than my own, in your games as well as in this thread, and I can't express how grateful I am for that. <3
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hanako
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Re: Wolf Hall - Development Testing Thread

#345 Post by hanako » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:08 pm

0.5.45 Update Summary:

New Scenes:
* card-making scenes for Jacob, Barbara, and Raven
* holiday concert (_many_ variations, especially involving Damien, being President, and being in Chorale)
* playable through Dec 19

Bugs/Crashes:
* Crash when the sparkle takes damage fixed.
* Crash on Dec 14th if we were broke but agreed to go shopping for
Donald fixed.
* 'Ask Minnie about Secret Santa' option on Dec 14 now only shows up if
you're copresidents.
* various tabs, slides, etc

Dungeons:
* Gloom units (the gradients by Dark cells) are no longer physical, so Blast
shrapnel will no longer hit them.
* Spells that target yourself now use the normal spell-casting framework,
so they will deduct MP and not fire off immediately. (Fixes Boost Strength
and Longjmp being free casts)
* Spirit Echoes units no longer movable, so teleport circles won't push them
around. (Fixes an unnamed unit wandering about with you when you teleport.)
* Now lock the dungeon UI when the say-slidein and say-slideout screens are
up, so you can't wander around the dungeon while giving up so much.
* Now gives a different examine description when you're aware a wall is illusory.
* Living units (like the player) are no longer objects by default, so you
can't fracture yourself.
* Now clear out player statii when showing the dungeon lobby, so that if
you were blind when you exited the last dungeon you no longer wind up STILL
blind entering the next tutorial.

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