Grabiner Comeuppance?

Female protagonist, in the hall for adventurous girls.
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FantasyFan
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#16 Post by FantasyFan » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:08 pm

(darts eyes back and forth like watching a tennis game) Well, this has been an interesting read from both sides. I don't think I've looked so deeply into Grabner's path before.

Wraith_Magus
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#17 Post by Wraith_Magus » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:51 pm

Wyllow wrote:
Wraith_Magus wrote:
Further, the extreme emotional need to react to a perceived loss of control is, ultimately self-destructive and abusive, as well. In fact, not "as well", that's basically the same thing you're angry at Grabiner for in the first place. :P
I have no idea what you're talking about here. But if you think speaking up for oneself, against someone being angry and physical with you, is equal to being angry and physical to someone. We have nothing further to talk about.
I'm talking about lashing out in anger in order to try to "correct" what you feel is a lack of respect for you.

You know, the thing you're angry at Grabiner about...

You're not willing to forgive him for what you feel is abusive behavior, and put more priorities upon assuaging your own fear through lashing out, in the exact same way that Grabiner lashed out when he feared he was losing control.

Likewise, reacting with such indignation at the notion that other posters would make a joke, the comment about not caring what other players felt or enjoyed in the game, assumption that those other players are bound to have abusive relationships, and the all-time forum-goer classic of "I'm done talking about this" further imply that your primary motive is not in actually discussing anything, but in trying to assuage your own emotional imbalance through acting outwardly, without regard to consequence or attempt to persuade.

Again, this the emotional state of Grabiner, which you don't want to stop to consider, but are asking others to stop and consider your own emotional state after that exchange...

Your position could use more internal reflection.

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#18 Post by Anondyne » Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:09 am

I admit, I'm in the camp of Please Change This. I was ... bothered by the fact that while Grabiner is apologizing, Sue goes "It's fine". I'm sorry, but that kind of thing should never be "fine". Grabiner does apologize, profusely, and I was gratified with that. It is just Sues response that really played a wrong note in my head.

As to what it should be changed to, I'd like her to have something to say about Grabiners habit of not listening to people when they try to explain. I get what Hanako is saying about there needing to be a way for the relationship to develop, but perhaps a choice between indignant calling out of Grabiner (ending the romance if you so choose) and her pointing out that he wouldn't need to apologize quite so much if only he'd allow the students to explain their actions every once in a while. If anything, the latter option, in my mind, should make Sue seem more adult to him, especially if worded carefully enough. It would allow him to express his feeling of respect for her later without too much of a rewrite. It would also go a little way in establishing a balance between the two characters, much like the blue ice cones.

In the end, I'd just be happier in already a great game if the "It's fine" was struck from the script. My 2 cents, for what they be worth.

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#19 Post by Wraith_Magus » Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:32 am

Anondyne wrote:I admit, I'm in the camp of Please Change This. I was ... bothered by the fact that while Grabiner is apologizing, Sue goes "It's fine". I'm sorry, but that kind of thing should never be "fine". Grabiner does apologize, profusely, and I was gratified with that. It is just Sues response that really played a wrong note in my head.

As to what it should be changed to, I'd like her to have something to say about Grabiners habit of not listening to people when they try to explain. I get what Hanako is saying about there needing to be a way for the relationship to develop, but perhaps a choice between indignant calling out of Grabiner (ending the romance if you so choose) and her pointing out that he wouldn't need to apologize quite so much if only he'd allow the students to explain their actions every once in a while. If anything, the latter option, in my mind, should make Sue seem more adult to him, especially if worded carefully enough. It would allow him to express his feeling of respect for her later without too much of a rewrite. It would also go a little way in establishing a balance between the two characters, much like the blue ice cones.

In the end, I'd just be happier in already a great game if the "It's fine" was struck from the script. My 2 cents, for what they be worth.
I agree with this part - in fact, my initial reaction to it, since I wrote it down in another forum, was, just after being dropped to the ground after Grabiner told her she was a liar (for denying it was her) and she should run away, that she should stand up and say "Then use your lie-detecting spell, and I'll prove I'm telling the truth." (Instead of actually running away.)

After all, it wasn't much before that where you get the scene where Potsdam tells you to basically stand your ground against him more.

Of course, "she was too overwhelmed by emotion to do that" could be a fair response, but that was just my initial reaction seeing the scene for the first time.

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#20 Post by Wyllow » Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:34 am

Anondyne wrote:I admit, I'm in the camp of Please Change This. I was ... bothered by the fact that while Grabiner is apologizing, Sue goes "It's fine". I'm sorry, but that kind of thing should never be "fine". Grabiner does apologize, profusely, and I was gratified with that. It is just Sues response that really played a wrong note in my head.
I didn't know he does apologise more later. But her response seemed really lacking to that milkwater/weaksauce first apology in the hallway. I rather like her getting the chance to tell him he scared her(Option Hanako came up with higher up).

And if on top of that, there was some combination of 'Is frightening people always your first choice' / 'Well, maybe if you let people explain themselves...'

I could see it as a hook to get a character/player more curious about him - start to wonder why he does what he does.

Whereas her original scripted response just has me going 'Really?' Because to me his anger, upset, etc was over the top.

It's good to know someone else would appreciate Sue having more/different options in that interaction.

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#21 Post by KarenCrystal » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:39 pm

It's just a game
Last edited by KarenCrystal on Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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#22 Post by hanako » Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:32 pm

If people suggest changes to the game that can be made without damaging the story that currently exists, I am happy to make alterations. I am working on some small changes to a couple of scenes that should not cause any problems for people who like the story that currently exists, while making it better for others.

After all, it's a game. People are supposed to enjoy it! :)

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#23 Post by Wyllow » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:09 pm

hanako wrote:If people suggest changes to the game that can be made without damaging the story that currently exists, I am happy to make alterations. I am working on some small changes to a couple of scenes that should not cause any problems for people who like the story that currently exists, while making it better for others.

After all, it's a game. People are supposed to enjoy it! :)
Thanks. I did only hope for change and that it wouldn't be troublesome to you. I appreciate both the conversation and your pleasure to add tweaks.

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#24 Post by Soulbringer » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:02 am

actually kinda an interessting read, I am usually all for more options variety, however it usually puts a strain on the writters, having to make enougth differences in the story to have alle the choices viable (in some way shape or form)... As such, id like it if the writter could fit it to the story - however i dont find it necesary

It isnt likely that most people would be inclined tell someone that they are scared of them when they ARE actually scared of them (if they ARE able to do that, some would say that they arent actually scared, and rather that they are uncomfortable...)

Anondyne wrote:As to what it should be changed to, I'd like her to have something to say about Grabiners habit of not listening to people when they try to explain. I get what Hanako is saying about there needing to be a way for the relationship to develop, but perhaps a choice between indignant calling out of Grabiner (ending the romance if you so choose) and her pointing out that he wouldn't need to apologize quite so much if only he'd allow the students to explain their actions every once in a while.
Considering their "official position", i dont think it would be highly likely for Grabiner to actually act on that... Have you ever as a lone student tried to tell your teacher to listen to you (students) more? From my perspective, considering the punishment for leaving the school, it could be even futher away from "our" average school life... And i find it rather hard to have both "Character" (not going to call her mary sue...) and Grabiner in a balanced relationship (even as friends) when NOT developing it. From the get go, there are just too many complications.

Wraith_Magus wrote:There is no BDSM relationship, and I don't think anyone was asking for one.
Pretty sure everyone is enjoying because there is no BDSM, and futher it would NOT fit well with how MD is written (style and genre)...


As a side note, i am actually really happy that my analysis of him was somewhat accurate :P

And as Hanako pointed out, chewing him out or pushing him (too much) are NOT the way to have an actual conversation with him, he has his shields up and his path is about gently getting him to loosen up around you.
Wraith_Magus wrote:that she should stand up and say "Then use your lie-detecting spell, and I'll prove I'm telling the truth." (Instead of actually running away.)
However, if you never intended to get on the Grabiners path and just ended up in the situation, i CAN understand your annoyance, however handling someone clearly more powerful than you and clearly very upset, you CANT go the logical way, because he ISNT being rational, he is being emotional, which can be rather hard to "control" with logical thinking :P - as for the apology part, as for a friendly advice there it would again have to go through his "shield" - And he would distance himself from you, which would be what you would want if the Grabiners path wasnt your intended path. [Hanako mentioned this]

The interessting part about the Path is that there is a huge difference between between the 2 characters in regards to "Official", "Secret or social" & "Emotional" standing, which will get explained the futher you go into the relationship
Life is a tale of memories...

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#25 Post by Wraith_Magus » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:54 am

Soulbringer wrote:
Wraith_Magus wrote:that she should stand up and say "Then use your lie-detecting spell, and I'll prove I'm telling the truth." (Instead of actually running away.)
However, if you never intended to get on the Grabiners path and just ended up in the situation, i CAN understand your annoyance, however handling someone clearly more powerful than you and clearly very upset, you CANT go the logical way, because he ISNT being rational, he is being emotional, which can be rather hard to "control" with logical thinking :P - as for the apology part, as for a friendly advice there it would again have to go through his "shield" - And he would distance himself from you, which would be what you would want if the Grabiners path wasnt your intended path. [Hanako mentioned this]

The interessting part about the Path is that there is a huge difference between between the 2 characters in regards to "Official", "Secret or social" & "Emotional" standing, which will get explained the futher you go into the relationship
The point of challenging him to test your veracity isn't to just ask him to behave rationally, it's to change the way he is regarding you.

To simply react to a threat with fear and running is a child's reaction, and that's what he's seeing you as when he uses his booming voice and strict disciplinarian shtick - he's doing it because he sees the character as a child that can only be kept in line through fear and discipline.

Standing up to him, even a little, forces a change in that dynamic. It's not a child-parent relationship where the child stands up and says they're willing to take a further beating, but violence won't prove the other party right, merely bigger.

Of course, considering the fear reaction Grabiner was already going through, it may very well make the resulting situation worse, but once he'd calmed down and returned to it, it would likely have made him regard your character as more mature than he'd previously given her credit.

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#26 Post by KarenCrystal » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:21 am

Just add the option to punch him in the face. It's what they want as for him seeing you in a new way. that happens at the end of the story. again it's a story and it's not you're story. if you don't like it don't play. IT'S A GAME. just a game....

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#27 Post by Wraith_Magus » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:39 pm

KarenCrystal wrote:Just add the option to punch him in the face. It's what they want as for him seeing you in a new way. that happens at the end of the story. again it's a story and it's not you're story. if you don't like it don't play. IT'S A GAME. just a game....
You know, I've never really had much patience for the "it's just a game" line of reasoning.

Somehow, I doubt many literature teachers would appreciate an argument that the book their students were supposed to be reading and discussing was described by their students as "It doesn't have any meaning, it's just a book."

It's a way to merely excuse not having to think about something, rather than an actual line of thought.

And frankly, this is a game with far more anemic gameplay qualities than most, and far more actual text, so discussing characters and motivations is hardly out of bounds.

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#28 Post by Anondyne » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:03 pm

Wraith_Magus wrote:
To simply react to a threat with fear and running is a child's reaction, and that's what he's seeing you as when he uses his booming voice and strict disciplinarian shtick - he's doing it because he sees the character as a child that can only be kept in line through fear and discipline.

Standing up to him, even a little, forces a change in that dynamic. It's not a child-parent relationship where the child stands up and says they're willing to take a further beating, but violence won't prove the other party right, merely bigger.
You have a good point here. I still feel though that Sue running away after Grabiner accuses her of spilling the beans is not entirely out of character. She has no reason not to believe his threats until Grabiner apologizes and reveals just how hollow they were. And occasionally, knowing when to retreat is better part of the valour, or something like that.

When someone is so emotionally upset as Grabiner is in that scene, it can be impossible to have any meaningful dialogue with that person. Sometimes the best option is always to go away and wait for them to take a few deep breaths to calm themselves and sort out their thoughts. Especially if the upset person can constitute a credible threat to you. And from Sues viewpoint, since she doesn't know what Hanako has posted of Grabiners motivations, he is a threat to her.

This is why I'm more concerned over how the conflict is resolved in the subsequent apology scenes. Grabiners effort of apology, to me, should open a more sincere dialogue between the two characters, if Hanako chooses to tweak the game this way. The content of the dialogue is, in and of itself, not important. But the way the scene plays for me now, Sue sounds either passive aggressive or cowed, either of which emotions I don't really attribute to Sue. This would be a perfect opportunity for her stand up for herself and stand out as the mature person in the room, since Grabiner is for once in a receptive frame of mind.

Of course, my opinion, it's Hanakos game, your opinion is as valid as mine etc. 8)

And lest my opinions be construed as insolence, I loved the game enough to buy it 3 times, once for myself and twice to gift to friends. :lol: This is more of an academic dissection of a perfectly lovely meal where you were given the wrong cutlery for the fish course.

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#29 Post by Wraith_Magus » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:27 pm

Perhaps, but again, I wrote that down as I was playing the game, before I had the benefit of seeing that apology or having his reasoning explained to me.

You could say it was partly that Potsdam had just encouraged the Suetagonist to be more firm with Grabiner, and I was looking for the chance.

However, it is also true that I, personally, tend to just naturally have the tendency to not leave well enough alone when I have a point to prove. And from an RP perspective, proving I wasn't just some child to be threatened and dismissed was a higher priority than walking out with all my limbs still attached.

If you are really approaching that relationship from the angle of someone

I would also point out that Ellen, properly steamed, was willing to charge headlong into Grabiner and tell him what-for, even after being chewed out and then told what the consequences would be. (And she outright enjoys the detention, both because she proves herself, and it advanced her interests.) I guess there's a reason I like her path the best is not only that Ellen's motives are just the most understandable and relatable of all the characters, but she also just plain seems the most mature of all the options, romantic or friendship, that you have in the game.

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#30 Post by ferdielance » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:39 am

But if the protagonist really does think Grabiner is dangerous (and he has a lot more magical power than her) punching him in the face could be really unwise. Teleporting herself or him away would be a better move than starting a fight with a professor.

But I don't really think the focus here should be entirely on what the protagonist could do differently, because Grabiner really was very far in the wrong there. Even by the logic of a place where a childhood joke promise is serious binding business, he went way way too far, and it disappointed me.

One of the game's biggest strengths is that, in most of the situations, it's possible for the player to choose to do the smart thing, and for the other characters to be smart as well. There's little reliance on people being stupid in order to generate arbitrary drama, outside of some side-plots.

The scene would make more sense to me if the violence were toned down or Grabiner used an illusion to attack her or something. It would still be unacceptable to threaten Mary Sue that way, but at least it would be softened a bit.

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